Robert: I have a very special show for you today. It is our first podcast with an actual guest and not just any guest. Today I get to spend time sharing the screen and talking all things behavior analysis with Dr. Megan Miller coming up in Just Seven Steps. 

 

Intro: Welcome to the Just Seven Steps podcast with Robert Schramm, a board-certified behavior analyst, educator, author and developer of the Seven Steps to Successful Parenting. For more than 20 years, Robert has been teaching parents and professionals how to support children and developing the values and priorities necessary to live a successful life. In this podcast, you’ll hear from some of the biggest experts in the fields of education, parenting and behavior analysis. So buckle in and get ready for a wild ride where you’ll learn to be your best in just seven steps. 

 

Robert: Hi, I’m Robert Schramm, a behavior analyst, education specialist, author and dad. And I’m also the developer of the Seven Steps to Instructional Motivation. Each week, I will provide you with helpful information based on the Just Seven Steps approach. So if you haven’t already subscribed by YouTube channel, please take a second and help us out. You will certainly be glad that you did. Whether you’re a parent looking to help your child to live their best life, or a professional charged with the education of children with or without disabilities, you will find a ton of help and information here, all filtered through just seven steps. In today’s episode, I get to speak to one of my favorite behavior analysts and someone I’m proud to call a good friend, Dr. Megan Miller. Megan was the co-founder of Navigation Behavioral Consulting and served as the CEO of Peak ABA Solutions. She graduated summa cum laude with a bachelor’s degree in psychology from John Carroll University in 2004 and obtained a masters in Psychology with a Specialization in Applied Behavior Analysis from Florida State University in 2007. Megan earned her Ph.D. in special education and behavior analysis at the Ohio State University in 2015. Dr. Miller’s early training and behavior analysis occurred at the Cleveland Clinic Center for Autism as a volunteer intern in 2003. Dr. Miller has taught courses in behavior analysis and special education as an adjunct professor for several universities, including the University of Mary Washington, the University of West Florida, the Ohio State University, Florida State University and Southern Illinois University, which happens to be where I got my undergrad work done. She has coauthored journal articles published in the Journal of Development of Physical Disability, Behavior Analysis and Practice and Teaching Exceptional Children. And even with all of that, she still has found time to help me write the very popular book, The Seven Steps to Instructional Control, which was first published back in 2014. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor to present to you a true progressive in the ABA world. Dr. Megan Miller. And there she is, the woman, the myth, the legend. You get to call her Dr. Miller. But I get to call her Megan. How you doing, old friend? 

 

Dr. Miller: I’m good. Busy, but good. 

 

Robert: It’s been hard getting us together. We’ve tried a lot of things, haven’t we? 

 

Dr. Miller: I know it’s been tricky. 

 

Robert: But we’re here. 

 

Dr. Miller: Yay! Finally. 

 

Robert: So here’s a game I like to play whenever I talk with you. It’s called Where in the World Is Carmen San Diego. Megan, you get to travel the world much like I have over the years, spreading your take on modern behavior analysis. I even wore my dad on vacation shirt for you today. So where might we find you on this fine day? Are you in Dubai, the U.K., Argentina, Scranton, Pennsylvania. 

 

Dr. Miller: Well, two things. One, I’m in your your stomping grounds, Germany. I’m in Munich right now. And a 14 hour layover. And I wonder, it’s probably a very little known fact that people listening to this would know that you’re the reason I get to travel the world. Because you’re the first person. You’re the first person who connected me with my first international client in Italy and then Serbia. And it was through those two that I started like posting and talking about international. So if it weren’t for you putting my name out there, I wouldn’t be living this life. So thank you for that.

 

Robert: Wow. So I’m to blame for you stealing all my work out there, huh? 

 

Dr. Miller: Well, you know, you gave me some. 

 

Robert: Oh, man. So I heard you are. So you’re in Munich right now. And where are you heading? 

 

Dr. Miller: I’m on my way to Tbilisi, Georgia, for a presentation. I’m doing a two day training there and, like, sightseeing and stuff, too. So tomorrow we’re going to Dashbashi Canyon, which is like this huge canyon. And they have. They just opened this diamond in the middle of it. With a bike, you can ride like a thin line. You can ride the bike out of a diamond. It’s so awesome. Oh, I’m so excited. 

 

Robert: Tbilisi is a beautiful city I really enjoyed it. 

 

Dr. Miller: I haven’t been there yet. 

 

Robert: Oh, they they they gave me such a great tour of the city. And, yeah, it was a really great place to go and visit and work. So you really like them there? I think I still have a picture somewhere of my work out there and maybe I’ll throw it up on the screen or something. And weren’t you just recently in Egypt? 

 

Dr. Miller: Yep. I was in Egypt for three weeks and then before that I was in Turkey for two weeks. But this is my last international trip planned for right now. I don’t know what the rest of 2022 is going to bring. 

 

Robert: Now, I’m sure you’ll have a week off. Did you get a chance to go see the pyramids in Egypt? Did you take the Camelback tour out there? 

 

Dr. Miller: Yeah, I did that the first time, but this time I was just like so busy working. By the time I was done working every day, I was like, No, I don’t want to sightsee. And then on the weekends, we were staying in Cairo and I wanted to get out of the city. So on the weekends, we went to the beach. So I didn’t really have an opportunity. 

 

Robert: Got it. Got it. Fair enough. All right. So let’s go ahead and start talking education and behavior analysis. 

 

Dr. Miller: Sounds good. 

 

Robert: So you’ve been at this game for quite a while. Almost as long as I have. Do you mind sharing with our viewers how you first came into awareness of my work with the seven steps to instruction or motivation, as we now call them? 

 

Dr. Miller: Sure. So back in the day, there was this little thing called Yahoo! Groups, and I had like this couple of months where I was transitioning, moving from Florida to Virginia. So I wasn’t working, which like never happens for behavior analyst. And I was working on building up my case load and my new company in Virginia. So I was really active on the Yahoo groups and someone posted a question. They had a client that was engaging in a state maintain behavior and they were wondering what to do about it because escape extinction wasn’t working and I replied and said, Try this. And it was basically the seven steps, but not described as such. And then you, you emailed me like back channel and you’re like, where did you learn that? Did you know I have a book on this? And I was like, No, I just did it in grad school. I came up with it for a kid. So that’s how we first connected. And then my first client in Virginia was a client that you had in Germany, too. So we just have, like, these weird ways the universe puts us together, apparently. 

 

Robert: Yeah. And. And I, for one, am very glad. 

 

Dr. Miller: The way I met you in person is I stopped you. 

 

Robert: You stopped me. Oh, okay. I’ve heard this story before, actually, now that I think about it. 

 

Dr. Miller: So for anyone out there who really admires the work that someone’s doing, go to one of their workshops or presentations and hang out until everyone else stops talking to them and then make them go to the social with you and just pick their brain for hours and never apologize about it. And then maybe you’ll be presenting and writing books together later. 

 

Robert: Well, I, for one, am really happy that you did because it’s been a great relationship. But we’ve had so much stuff that we’ve been able to do together since. So let me ask you this for just a second. Put yourself back in that time frame. And what was it that you were kind of first excited about when you did, then eventually read about the seven steps? And how did that affect the type of behavior analysis that you saw happening at the time? 

 

Dr. Miller: Okay. So just for everyone to know, I’ll tell you what year that was. It was like 2009, 2010 timeframe. So if we’re thinking back how long ago that was. 

 

Robert: Yeah, I published I published the first manual in 2007. So several years after that. 

 

Dr. Miller: Yeah. And for me, the two things I was most excited about, one is it took what I had been like just doing on my own and trying to teach people how to do and put it into like a more systematic way of doing it. Like the seven steps, it was a lot easier to follow and it had a few like the big thing that I wasn’t focused, focused on, but the seven steps really focused on, and especially in your workshops, was that connecting like developing a relationship with the children because you’re just a goofball like, I don’t know, you’re you and Steve Ward or two of my influences there in terms of like how to be fun and silly with kids. So you had like a really big focus on that, especially in your workshops that I hadn’t seen explained in that way before. So that was really helpful. But the other part was how well it was written that parents would understand it. Like I would tell a client something in my own words, and then I would bring them your book and be like, Here, just read these couple of pages. And then they’d say, Oh, yes, that makes sense. It’s like, I just told you the same thing, but there’s some way you have of talking that really connects for parents. I guess so. 

 

Robert: Wow. Well, I appreciate you saying that. That’s awesome. So, yeah, that’s you know, I think I think Steve Ward is definitely someone I should have as a guest on here. I haven’t talked with him in a little bit, but in the early days of us all hanging out at ABA International, I think we had a lot of fun together. So yeah, we’ll have to see what he’s up to these days too. 

 

Dr. Miller: I forgot to say where I felt about like the field. So at that time, again, it was like 2009, 2010. You were the only one doing conference presentations on it, and then you were kind enough to invite me and a couple of your coworkers or employees to present as well. And that was it. It was just us talking about this stuff back then. And it was very interesting because most people that would come to the presentations were super excited afterwards and like ready to go with implementing the seven steps. It was such a huge jump forward from where things, you know, what people were being taught about using traditional escape extinction. And then now finally, 12 years later, we have more people presenting on similar topics and it’s really starting to get out there that there’s better ways to interact and provide interventions than using traditional escape extinction. But even looking back at what we’re working on this, but like revising what we wrote together even in 2012, ten years ago, 2011, whatever, whenever that was, there’s so much just changes and what we understand and know about how to provide humane, effective intervention. And I love that you continue to push that far forward. 

 

Robert: Well, that leads me right into my next question. How have you changed or adjusted the way that you’re using the steps in these more recent years, especially focusing on your strong considerations for compassionate education and neurological diversity? 

 

Dr. Miller: So for me, one of the big things that’s changed about I think we haven’t completely finalized this yet, but the seventh step about using extinction but not using traditional extinction, I typically just really don’t use extinction much anymore. It’s been a progression and there is definitely times where it’s necessary, but it’s like a very last like last point in what I’m doing. But also with any of the stops, whatever I’m doing with the child, it’s with the child. And really explaining to them which ties in nicely with the being consistent and clear and saying what you mean. But it’s like just leaps and bounds beyond where I used to be with that, like really explaining what the expectations are and providing coaching and support around like emotional regulation as part of the seven steps. So recognizing like if a learner’s having a difficult time, I’m not just sitting there reading them out at first. I’m going to try to coach them through how to navigate that. And then we might get to a point where I have to wait because we all get to that point where we’re so stressed we can’t do anything and we just need a break. And then during that time, I’m not going to force them to do anything, which is what the seven steps as written says anyway. But I might lean depending on the learner and where their skill sets are. In the seventh step, it basically says to like wait and withhold reinforcement until they do what what you’ve presented. But instead I will depending it’s like depending on what’s going on, I’ll either provide that coaching to help them navigate and if they’re assenting, maybe remove the demand completely. Or I might like if there’s some other reinforcer that they’re wanting, like the iPad or something like that, depending again on their skill sets, it might be like, okay, fine, you can have that right now. And then I need to reflect on what I did. How did we get to that point where they’re trying to use their behavior to get what they want instead of, you know, interacting with me? But it’s all stuff. It’s more of a decision tree. It’s not as simple as just being like, okay, if they don’t do what you want, you just withhold reinforcement until they do. 

 

Robert: Well, I think I think you’re going to be really excited to hear the work that I’ve been doing recently in updating and upgrading the seven steps to, you know, match kind of this this new understanding that we’ve developed with some of the work of people like Dr. Greg Hanley and a few others who have really been have been looking at this. And I know you’ve been so busy that you probably haven’t had a chance to look at it, but I’m in the process of rewriting step seven to call it more of a troubleshooting step rather than immediately going to some form of extinction. It’s about troubleshooting what we did that didn’t allow us to get the happy cooperation we were expecting. And while we didn’t get the happy cooperation we were expecting, what are the things that we could have done differently that could have gotten us there? And then it’s becoming, like you said, a decision tree of how do we go about figuring out the best way to do that? So I’m really excited to share that with you because I know we’ve talked about doing a new edition of the book. I mean, now that we’ve fully switched over to the terminology of instructional motivation from instructional control, I think that title has to change. But I’ve already looked through the book and there’s so much in there that I want to change and update things that I’m already teaching to people one on one. But I think that the reference material needs to be upgraded and updated as well. And so hopefully after your trip here, you’ll find some time to work with me on it and maybe we’ll have that as well as that. 

 

Dr. Miller: That’s a top priority for when I get done with this trip. 

 

Robert: So awesome. Awesome. So what are your plans or what were your thoughts going forward on this new edition that we’ve been threatening to finish recently? How do you think about how do you think it offers value in combination with other, newer, recent developments in the field? 

 

Dr. Miller: I think it shows that one of the biggest things to me is it’s a good example of how you can keep progressing forward, even if you find a better way of doing things, which is what you and I did and some others back, you know, ten, 12 years ago or longer that can still be improved to like it was better then, but there’s better things now than what we were doing. So I think that is really exciting just to have that example out there for people and really synthesizing the new information that we have, not just from researchers in our field, but also within like neuroscience and child development and understanding autism and like pulling all of those types of things and it obviously can’t go super in-depth, would be the longest book ever. But, you know, at least giving people references of other resources to look at and learn more about where we’re pulling this information from. Because there is there’s so much information, especially just around understanding autism and the being affirming of neurodiversity that has come out. It’s it’s actually existed probably for at least 20 years, but it’s really more in the spotlight now. And like more people that aren’t neurodiverse who who maybe would have missed it 20 years ago are now starting to understand it. So I think being able to continue to disseminate, you know, how we as behavior analysts can continue to improve our practices to be more compassionate and humane as well as neurodiversity affirming is, I think, really important, especially because a lot of parents read your work. And I think for the parents, sometimes I’m not a parent of a child that has any type of diagnosis right now. It’s possible he might at some point, who knows? You never know. He’s definitely not autistic. But anyway, so I don’t I can’t completely relate. But for a lot of parents, because of the way our society structured, there’s so much pressure on them to like have their children be a certain way and fit a certain mold. And being able to show parents how to be more like connected and uplifting with their children and really honor and accept them as who they are and help them live their best autistic lives or whatever life I think will be really beneficial to you. 

 

Robert: Yeah, I think I think there’s been a real positive change from trying to remove things that would be considered autistic to being able to say, how do we help this child to be happier with who, whoever they are and whoever and be able to, to, to just to, to do well in the society in which they’re going to be living. And I think that we talked about it that way. And if you look back at my books, it was always discussed that way, but it was still couched from this terminology or this idea that being labeled as autistic was somehow something to be avoided or something to be fixed. And I think when you talk to some advocates and people who are living with autism as part of their identity and are perfectly comfortable with that identity, you can understand why people would be disappointed to hear that others would want to get rid of that or rather eradicate that. So yeah, I think it’s a very valuable step forward. And I know you’ve, you know, in behavior analysis, I know you’ve caught some some slack over your more understanding approach to this sort of thing. So hopefully it’s just a process of everyone kind of waking up and moving forward with their with their thought process. That’s so. So we’ll see. We’ll see how all that. 

 

Dr. Miller: We might we might lose some friends. I don’t know if we’ll see, but I’m already on that. So. 

 

Robert: Well, you won’t lose me as a friend, that’s for sure. So what, if anything, would you like to say to parents who might be struggling with the behavior of their child? And does that change any at all? If you’re talking to the parent of a child with an autism diagnosis or other disability or even no label at all? 

 

Dr. Miller: So there’s a couple of things I would say. One is we all have behaviors that we engage in. Like we all have our stress responses and whatnot. So try to, you know, keep that in mind when you’re a parent that like especially if you have a little one, two, three or four year old, they’ve only been on this earth a few years and they’re just navigating what they know is not anything personal on you usually. So try to not get stressed yourself about it and really do some perspective taking and understand what this experience is like for your child, whether they have any type of diagnosis or not. Like how are they experiencing the world and what’s what skills do they have? And see it as an opportunity to figure out what teaching needs to be done to help them learn to navigate things more safely and potentially calmly. We all get angry, we all get sad, we all get really stressed and have our things we do to regulate ourselves. And little ones don’t have those skills yet. So we really need to be focusing on teaching that and being a model of that for the parent, sorry, for the children as parents. So that’s one and then the other. The other advice I would give is to recognize your child as their own unique human is again, whether they have a diagnosis of anything or not. Try not to place your own expectations and biases of your lived experience onto your child. Just let them give them space to show you who they are. Help support that and be a see an area of safety for them and let them grow into the human that they’re planning to grow into. We can do as much as we want as parents to try to shift and condition and train our kids to do certain things. But it doesn’t always work. It can be really frustrating. And then we don’t get to see what unique human they would have turned into if we just gave them the space to be who they are. Those are my two big things that I usually talk to parents about. And of course, making sure to take time for themselves to have. Now I hate to say self-care, but have your own routines as well. Set boundaries. That’s a big one. I think that will be coming up in the seventh revision of the seven steps, like how to set boundaries, because that’s really what the initial seven steps was. That was like the first movement toward like how do you clearly like create an environment that’s positive and happy for the child, but you have some type of boundary, too. So they’re learning. And that’s, I think, a thing that we don’t learn at all how to do set boundaries, period. A lot of us are in jobs where we’re like taken advantage of. We’re in relationships where we’re taken advantage of because we don’t know how to set boundaries and protect ourselves. So as a parent, it’s really important if you’re finding that you don’t know what your boundaries are or how to set those boundaries in a way that’s supportive and loving of your child, but also supportive and loving of your self. Then there’s lots of resources that are helpful. Robert I can give you a list of some of their Instagram accounts that they’re just so helpful for, like parenting that I love obviously your work, but there’s a few different places I follow that give me ideas on how to take what what I aim to do with my own sign and what I aim to teach parents about these different Instagram accounts. They provide a bunch of different resources like infographics and things on, you know, like how do you set kind of boundaries or, you know, how to tell your child you’re too stressed and you need a break and stuff like. 

 

Robert: That will certainly send us the links to that and I’ll see if I can put it into the, into the description of this, of this podcast so that people have access to it can and, and can follow up on that. And I think that last little run there may be a great example of why you keep getting yourself invited all over the world to speak on behavior analysis. I mean, you really do have your finger at the pulse of where we are and where we need to be going. And I’m pretty I’m pretty excited to kind of see what you’ll be doing in the future, and I’m excited for what we’re going to be able to do with the new book as well, the the updated version of the Seven Steps. So, so finally, I guess what, if anything, would you say to the education and behavior analysts field, what do you think we should be all focusing on going into the next decade of education and parenting planning for our kids? Is there anything else beyond what we’ve already discussed that you think behavior analysts who are watching this right now should be saying, okay, I’m going to target myself and focus on going in this direction? 

 

Dr. Miller: I think there’s two things we haven’t talked about yet. So repeat everything I already said. The two things that I would say one is maintain your philosophical doubts. Just because you were trained in a clinic or in a university, that such and such procedure is the end all be all does not mean that it’s the most effective or humane for the children that we’re working with. So maintain your philosophical doubt and always question what you’ve been taught and look at how you can keep improving based on not just the research in our field, but whatever area you’re working in. So if you’re working in autism, you’re staying on top of all of the autism research for the populations you serve, plus the behavior analytic research. If you’re working with, you know, in a mainstream classroom, you’re staying on top of that research as well. It’s a lot to keep up with, but it will make you a better practitioner. The other one is to know your values. So when when you are using philosophical doubt, when you’re saying on top of the research, how are you practicing? What are your values as a behavior analyst that you’re aiming to achieve when you’re practicing so that when you’re making decisions, you can synthesize best practices within the science as well as keeping in line with your values. An example of this would be, you know, there is research on extinction. There’s research on different punishment procedures for surgery out of being effective. But in my one of my values is that I’m neurodiversity affirming. So I’m not going to do anything that would change an autistic person unless they’re asking for it or it’s a danger. And there’s that’s a whole we can talk about that for a whole show point being, just because there’s research to show that I could get rid of stereotypes using punishment doesn’t mean that I’m going to do it right, because doesn’t mean that it. 

 

Robert: It doesn’t mean that you should. 

 

Dr. Miller: Yes, exactly. So there is tons of research that’s been done that shows, quotes, things to be effective, but that doesn’t mean we should do them. And that’s when you know your values and you use philosophical doubt. You can choose your interventions from a place of humanity and safety instead of just blindly trying to apply science. 

 

Robert: Well, if you think back to where we were when we started, when I think back to where I was when I first began to develop the programing that ultimately turned in to the seven steps, I certainly I certainly work that way because there were a lot of things that were being recommended pretty much across the board, including in in really big, valuable verbal behavior approach, you know, clinics that just did not feel right to me. 

 

Dr. Miller: They still are. And so happening. 

 

Robert: Yeah, I suppose that that is unfortunately true. We kind of shield ourselves by babbling into a group of of like minded behavior analysts. But you’re right, I when I get to the when I get out there and I do presentations for four different clinics sometimes, you know, this is the first time they’re hearing, you know, why you would want to avoid using escape extinction. So, yeah, I mean, there’s there’s a lot that needs to change. But I think luckily early on, I was never comfortable doing things that didn’t feel right. And and I think that that that understanding of kind of having that that internal feeling of what feels right as a teacher versus what is the science saying can be done or should be done, I think is really valuable thing for for us all to have and to carry with us, maybe not just in our field, but anywhere we go. All right. So the neighbor just started leaf blowing. So I don’t know if you guys can hear that or not. 

 

Dr. Miller: I don’t hear it. 

 

Robert: What’s that? 

 

Dr. Miller: I don’t hear it, but it’s okay. 

 

Robert: Good, yeah. Well, I just I just wanted to say thank you again for joining us here today. And just seven steps. I knew when I started this podcast that I would not be happy having anyone but you as my first official guest. Thanks for taking the time that you’ve given us today and for all that you do with the families that you work with and for the field in general. Ladies and gentlemen, I introduce to you one last time, Dr. Megan Miller. 

 

Dr. Miller: Thank you, Robert, and thank you so much for having me on the podcast and for being an early mentor of mine and then colleague and now friend. So it’s been wonderful knowing you and learning from you and learning with you. 

 

Robert: Awesome. Well, I tell you, I really consider our friendships one of the most important that I’ve made professionally. And I’m really glad that you’re you’re out there doing what you’re doing and sharing your information with the world. You know, we didn’t even talk about your your initiative. We didn’t even talk about your do better initiative and the work that you’re doing for behavior and analysts. I’m thinking maybe we need to have you back on again and let you guide that conversation, giving people an idea, especially people in our field, an idea of what kind of value you’re making available to them through that. So can I be great? Can I can I get you can I get you on camera recorded saying that. Yes. You’ll come back and speak to us again? 

 

Dr. Miller: Yes, of course. 

 

Robert: Awesome. All right. Well, hopefully you don’t miss any flights. You want to turn off your background and show people where you’re actually at right now, or is that too much to ask? 

 

Dr. Miller: It’s actually pretty nice. 

 

Robert: You could have just used that. 

 

Dr. Miller: I know. I love this. I love this airport so much. Like outside, there’s like this like mall or something. I’m not really sure, but I just spent a bunch of hours at the spa because I thought I had a hotel booked, but I didn’t, so I went to the spa. 

 

Robert: Well, you know, that’s the life of a of a world traveler. And so say hi to Munich and to Germany for me and. And talk to the folks at the. At the ABA clinic in Tbilisi. Tell them I said hello. 

 

Dr. Miller: I will. 

 

Robert: All right. Thank you so much for being with us. Take care and we’ll see you soon. Okay. Bye bye. Thank you for taking the time to join me today on the Just Seven Steps podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please take just a moment to leave me a comment, give a thumbs up, share the video with others, and subscribe to our YouTube channel so that you won’t miss out on any of our Just Seven Steps videos designed to help parents of children with challenges. Find your family’s path to progress. See you right here next week.